Okrasa with ported holes for the intake?

zelensis61 wrote:

Looks like Okrasa but after looking closer I think it could beee welded up originals?? :beer: :beer:

Bengt H wrote:

Hello Lou,

thanks for finishing my idea from 2007!!!:d

I started the same project, but there was no time to realize it completely.

And now after wolfsburg west ist selling new 36hp okrasa heads there`s no "sense" anymore :?

Wolfgang

brezel53 wrote:

Hi Wolfgang
thanks for your comments

YOUR IDEA :roll:
I know many people who have thought of doing this, to be honest it is not that difficult to put heads on a milling machine and make some holes.

The real work and skill is welding them up and then machining
We wasted a few heads on the way, but now our prototype is nearly finished, then we will make a couple more sets for testing.
When they are finished we will publish foto's of the work on our blog.

As for the WW kits, We don't do Brasilian, only German and for sure NO REPRO
The whole point of oldspeed is to use your imagination a little and think outside the box, if you can go and buy it all of the shelf, then in our book it's not Oldspeed

In the words of our good friend Bob
It's better to inovate than duplicate

lou cypher wrote:

mhhhh good post, but as you see on wolfgangs smilie it was an ironic post - wich should only tell that some other guys have tried to start a project like you have finished....

but one think, i do not really understand... it's the fact of the oldspeed spirit. i think that the modifications on original heads due to a welding session and a big amount of grinding hours will bring you only to the point where okrasaheads start (beside some modifications on the manifoldflange geometry). so the fact that WW is building nice quality heads in okrasa style will also support the sentence "The whole point of oldspeed is to use your imagination a little and think outside the box"
so for me the WW heads are really good to start at this point and build my customhead with this basis (bigger valves, some porting and some more improvements) but, and that is really important for me, i would never do this on an original okrasa heads... this thing should be used as oettinger has built it.

i appreciate your work, but i do not understand the discrepance between "using only original parts" ,"NOT using repro parts" but building "own custom solutions"...where (beside the money an time) is the difference if you modify repro parts???


just my 2 cents...

oval56 wrote:

My comments were also a little tongue in check.....!

I think that you missed the point here regarding the spirit of Oldspeed. Take a look at all the '50's & 60's Le Mans cars for example, the teams bought a car from a factory then it was up to them to improve it, as I already said you couldn't just go down to a shop and buy parts to bolt on. So for us, modifying heads is in the spirit of Oldspeed, and is an exercise to see how they will perform. "Our heads will only be were Okrasa start", well Okrasa heads don't have 6mm valve stems, we are using different springs and the are heavily ported on intake and exhaust, what the difference will be, I don't know. We have NOS Okrasa heads that we would never dream of altering, but maybe we will take them to a flow bench to see the difference between the two.

I admit that the WW heads are a way of people who don't want to pay the "silly prices" that Okrasa have become, to get performance at a far price.
Just because we don't use them doesn't mean that they are not good, far from it, I'm sure they perform very well and all the little problems have been ironed out, that is why release date was delayed for 18 months.
That's also true what you said about them being a good starting point for people who want to modify them and less time consuming than welding and machining.

I had a chance to quickly look at a set of WW heads this weekend in Mannheim. After a quick look the combustion chamber is not the same as Okrasa and also the cooling fins look different, I did this from memory so could be wrong. I'm sure someone will post a picture sooner or later.
But of course they won't be the same, for the price, but does it really matter, as long as the person who bought them is happy and they have performance for a resonable price.........

We made our heads to see if it is possible to make them and how they would perform, this is a lot of time invested (as you know as you also have welded heads) and they could go bang, but it is only our time we have lost...


I would like to hear how yours perform if you modify them

There are always two sides to a debate, that's normal...

lou cypher wrote:

yeah they were single port 30hp heads that we modified here you can see before and after
once we made the first set, pictured at the beginning of the post, we used them as a master to measure everything so we could make a pair for use :lol:



and the work continues 

lou cypher wrote:

:beer: :d :wink:

when i see your pictures, i have many hours of welding and grinding and machining in my heads :wink: but th eresult makes that worth:beer: :!:

so the improvmet to okrasa heads is smaller valeshafts, smaller sparkplug thread and bigger valves or? if, what size have you choosen and have you modified the combustion space also? (spherical?? - i had done this to my 1433xx engine)

did you modify the rockerarm ratio also? (different styles / solutions possible)

oval56 wrote:

Yeah I know you have many hours of work on your heads too, but when it's your own time it's for free and the end results are much more pleasing :d

that's right for the heads, bigger valves, smaller valve stems, smaller spark plug

for the rest NOS alu case line bored to 1st over on the case, s90 cam - then of course we need to bin the pushrods and use lifters, preA Hirth crank - yeah we know they don't oil at low rpm's but we are going to drive it :twisted:

we originally planned to use 912 rods with 20mm bushing, 78mm pistons - 28mm compresion height, so the camber is CC'd to 42 to give 8.5:1 compression at standard deck height and 1414cc.

BUT now we are thinking to use either 80mm Nicasils with flat top pistons or 82.5mm nicasils with JE pistons.
912 or carrillo rods

we havn't even got to thinking about rocker arm ratios yet, "The München Boyz" are pushing the envelope on that one:beer: :beer: 8)
nice little movie,:beer: although we had to borrow a "Bill Gates machine" to view it as we couldn't watch it on a MAC :?

we are now thinking about a twin spark conversion :twisted:

lou cypher wrote:

but if u use rebushed 356 rods ( as o have done it) and pistons with 28mm deckhight you have to shimm the cylinders about 7-11mm each side as i have it right in mind... go with the 82.5 or 80mm flattop, it is easyer to handle with the witdh of the engine, nearly no shimms needed and no bushing problem

oval56 wrote:

with 28mm compression height pistons you don't need any spacers under the cylinders, but I'm sure the penny has dropped for you now :d

but for others reading the thread, who don't get it, I will explain

VW pistons have a compression height of 38mm , Porsche have a compression height of 28mm
Compression height = measurement from the middle of the wrist pin to the top of the piston.

We don't use spacers/shims under cylinders as the head tinware no longer fits properly therefore you don't get maximum cooling, solution that most people us is to weld a piece on the tins.

If you want a little more peformance from your 30hp or buliding an Okrasa, bore out your standard 77mm cylinders to 78mm
use preA crank (74mm stroke) then you will need to use Porsche rods
now you don't want to use shims, so the solution is a 78mm 323 piston, it has a compression height of 28mm, one problem is that it use's a 20mm wrist pin, that's why you will need to put a 20mm bushing in the rods
Yeah I know people say don't use Mazda pistons, but we have never had a problem with them and I know there are other people using them in their Okrasa's also.

Porsche 80mm PreA nicasils and 82.5mm A nicasils 28mm compression height, no shims required
You don't need to use nicasils just regular iron porsche 80mm & 82.5mm are also good
Nicasil alloy cylinders are not cheap BUT you get better heat dispersion, 917 used nicasils for this reson :twisted:

lou cypher wrote:

but i see, no info on the valvessizes to get :cry:

oval56 wrote:

Nicasil alloy cylinders are not cheap

lou cypher wrote:

You aren´t joking! Nikkies were 3200 dollars when I looked! I bought iron PreA cylinders.

JD wrote: