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zelensis61
13 years ago

i think this is Heb no.6...the one that used to have the ridiculously long bumper irons...pics taken at BC11...met the owner...quite a car collection...first time i'd seen an iPad too!

UserPostedImage

RockStock wrote:


I think that is not Heb nr 6. for me it is car 725. The all black one. Probably built at Karmann:omg: . Heb nr 6 should have another color. And it is no longer red with white sides and the bumper bars are the correct ones now. :thumbup:

I have not seen yet "the perfect heb"...If it is restored at high level..it is not original as they were made in a poor way.:roll: in those days.
A few cars are near perfect but no a single one is 100%.

No one knows for sure what is original and what is not. I have studied zillion hours picts, documents, formus, cars in real, took a zillion picts and keep looking for new info. At some point, near car 400 some changes took place...What and from what car? NO idea.

There is a market for such cars and there is a demand for such cars. I know for sure between 5 and 10 who are willing to pay a serious price for a heb....I have mailed some of them and non of them made an offer on this one as far as I know.
Carsten will agree on this one: Most of the hebs that are restored have leatherette seats. Most of the original picts from the past shows cloth interiors. ? Only the old proto picts shows a leather interior. The leatherette interior was availeble original ans some cars came with it but the most of them came in cloth.

The firs who can say a resto is 100% correct, can show his resto on a forum and I am sure lots of people will say this is not good or that is not good.

Stevwe, I can only help with info and picts. As an advice....look at the old picts as much as you can. I think car 404, 410 and 422 are closer to one car in the shop instead of 323. 316 and 293 are closer to the other car in the shop.:drool:
I know one car that is never restored, just overpainted and will have a look again soon at it. That is for me a good exemple. It is untouched since the early 60s.
Greetings. Included a pict of a certain heb....8)

 Heb with round lights cut.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
AW
  • AW
  • pre67vw Junkie
13 years ago
What happend to the met green one of Willy Lotterman ?????

Andy W
six-o-one
13 years ago
I'm glad I took the opportunity to buy one when I did. It was an lot of money for me but worth every penny. I kept a check on asking prices and where possible what price was actually achieved.

I think these cars are now moving from VW enthusiasts to classic car collectors with very very deep pockets.

I've also noticed that the Oval based Heb replica is for sale at $120K and I sold 601 a few years ago for $70K

If these prices are achieved then it make a good Heb replica a more realistic project.
Lavenham Vintage VW Show - 2012 
Bandwagen | Vintage Volkswagens & Photography 
pre67vw
  • pre67vw
  • Administration Topic Starter
13 years ago

I've also noticed that the Oval based Heb replica is for sale at $120K

If these prices are achieved then it make a good Heb replica a more realistic project.

six-o-one wrote:



The advert for the oval heb replica was added Aug 28, 2010. That's not exactly what I'd call a quick sale, to me that is pretty good evidence that it's over priced. This car might even be the reason they're asking $225k for #323, thinking that a real one is worth twice as much as a fake?

Of course, both of these cars will probably sell eventually but the actual sale price won't be so public, so the asking price is what sticks in peoples minds.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
zelensis61
13 years ago

What happend to the met green one of Willy Lotterman ?????

Andy W

AW wrote:



Andy, That one is stil in possesion of the family. Marcus owns it and as he told me it is not for sale in remembering his father.:thumbup:

It is clear that the prices went up the last 5 -6 years. But as high as they are now and the problems all over europe with the banks I think they will even go higher.
Some people have the money and on the account in the bank it wil not give as much plesure as on a car that keeps it value.
As far as I know the Hebs that are sold the last 5 years are all sold for a bit less then asking prices exept Claus Missings his bargain...:omg: He payed the asking price and got a discount on the spare part box:p

The replica's from Roger Dean are very well done, they are even bette made as the original but to pay such an amount of money for a clone is somthing to think about.

I had a friend who was willing to pay something for a replica if it was a good one. Due to changing the color and the interior on his demand, the price went up. At the end the price for a semi finished car on his demand including all the parts to finish one, was even higher then a finsihed car.?
Finaly he canceled the project due to an offer on another car.

On the other hand, It is about the looks and the joy driving it, not the joy of being an owner of an all numbered and documented heb in perfect confition that does not see the daylight. My thoughts.
Best regards. Peter.
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
vintagevw
13 years ago

A wise man has spoken!!!:thumbup:

:twisted: ET

heb623 wrote:


X2!:beer:
Wat is het fijn om lesbisch te zijn!
vintagevw
13 years ago

i think this is Heb no.6...the one that used to have the ridiculously long bumper irons...pics taken at BC11...met the owner...quite a car collection...first time i'd seen an iPad too!

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

owners of the really rare early VWs can ask what they like, when they like - whatever the condition
who knows what value the market will bear?
tiny inaccuracies are irrelevant

RockStock wrote:


H was at my home last summer. :-)
A real nice guy, we had dinner together and talked alot about.............
VOLKSWAGENS! :beer:
Wat is het fijn om lesbisch te zijn!
heb623
13 years ago

X2!:beer:

vintagevw wrote:




George???:rofl:

:twisted: ET

PS Pascal: The man on the pic above is that Yanto Widodo?
I ’ll never regret the things I did wrong!
I only regret the good things I did for the wrong people!
pbaptist
13 years ago
Heb #6 is indeed in Indonesia together with heb 725.

When I was on holiday in Indonesia last oktober, I went to visit the owner and saw his very nice VW collection.

Heb #6 was ready for painting. Heb #725 was like it was bought.
 DSCF5480~640.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.  DSCF5521~640.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
zelensis61
13 years ago
Patrick, Thanks for the picts. 715 is for sure restored in a fast way. The containerpicts I have shows a car that is in pieces. There was a huge problem in customservice to get the car as, like I was told, there is no possibility to import a complete car? Just parts.
They had to pay extra money to get it free after more then one year.

While looking at my picts, I see something that I did not noticed before.
The car from Mr Widodo with nr 725 must be made at Karmann. The vin tag is not a hebmuller type. It wears the code 10/11. A heb that is made for VW should have 10/14.
I have looked maybe 100 times at all those picts....Guess it was a blind spot.
So you see, I learn every day.:d
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
ste VW agen
13 years ago

The firs who can say a resto is 100% correct, can show his resto on a forum and I am sure lots of people will say this is not good or that is not good.

zelensis61 wrote:



Great Point, Peter! :thumbup: And because of the magic of this forum & others, we have a pool of people with cars, resources and experiences who are able to discuss what is "correct" and what is not. While nobody can say for sure, through healthy discussion here, we can sure get "close!" I can guarantee that when 309 & 418 get completed, they would never be offered as 100% correct. But instead, they'll be offered as the products of healthy collaborative effort among experts, and with a LONG LIST of "Danke's & Merci's" in the credits page! :beer:

Stevwe, I can only help with info and picts. As an advice....look at the old picts as much as you can. I think car 404, 410 and 422 are closer to one car in the shop instead of 323. 316 and 293 are closer to the other car in the shop.:drool:

zelensis61 wrote:



You prove once again , Peter the value of this thread (for Hebmullers), and the beauty of these forums for all else VW. No Man (or restorer) is an Island, and I just happened to be stuck on one here in Hong Kong :unsure: So with geography an obstacle, this discussion gets as good as sitting around a table at "The Hebmuller Cafe" in Wolfsburg, H.O., B.C., Lavenham, etc . :thumbup:

Although we'll never achieve 100% correct cars, we'll have had the luxury of consulting with multiple experts throughout the restoration processes, instead of just putting a "freshly - restored" car out on the market and THEN learning what needs to be changed. :omg: We respect the wisdom of Carsten, yourself and others who point to certain changes as the Hebs came down the line ........ and vow to think twice before hammering once.


"I know one car that is never restored, just overpainted and will have a look again soon at it. That is for me a good exemple. It is untouched since the early 60s."

zelensis61 wrote:



Bring it on, and Once again .......... Vielen Dank! :beer:

Ste VW e
I Ha VW e a Dream!! (Well ...... err, Many!)
1) '49 Hebmueller (project)
2) '51 Split Sunroof (project)
3) '56 Oval Ste VW agen (project)
4 & 5) '67 Kabriolett x 2 (projects)
6) '18 K Gold Split Pendant around my neck since 1976 (complete & original)
usariemen
13 years ago


While looking at my picts, I see something that I did not noticed before.
The car from Mr Widodo with nr 725 must be made at Karmann. The vin tag is not a hebmuller type. It wears the code 10/11. A heb that is made for VW should have 10/14.
I have looked maybe 100 times at all those picts....Guess it was a blind spot.
So you see, I learn every day.:d

zelensis61 wrote:



Hi Peter
Why should Karmann use that kind of tag?
It still is a type 14, even when they made it.
They used 10/15 tags. If they got extra tags for any type 14 they made for VW, they would have gotten 10/14 tags I guess.
Well, that´s just a guess.
But look once more at the pic and you´ll see that the rivets of the tag are not the original ones.
So we can´t know if it is the original one.
Carsten
Master of my domaine.
zelensis61
13 years ago
Carsten, You are right.:oops: It was in my enthousiasme that I posted the answer. Indeed the rivets are replaced.
But surely I have suspicion on all hebs with nrs above 705...I wonder why?

Oh boy, I learn every day something new on hebs... Poor mind of me. I had to write down the names of my wife and daughters to gain more space on my HD ( Head Disk) 😛
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
ste VW agen
13 years ago

Included a pict of a certain heb....8)

zelensis61 wrote:




Danke Schon Peter for the suggestion below, but I think that this is a 1957 "Big Fins Hebmuller" :d . Mine is a simple '49 & was built before the auto industry joined the space age!!

ste VW e  big Fins Heb.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
I Ha VW e a Dream!! (Well ...... err, Many!)
1) '49 Hebmueller (project)
2) '51 Split Sunroof (project)
3) '56 Oval Ste VW agen (project)
4 & 5) '67 Kabriolett x 2 (projects)
6) '18 K Gold Split Pendant around my neck since 1976 (complete & original)
oldbug.com
13 years ago
Great conversation gentlemen...this is what the hobby is all about! Chasing the facts and learning from every car, not name calling and silly chatter like with many forums.

The owner of this car is not the "purist guru" of VW's, there are some details which he is still learning (me too!) and as with any restoration, there is someone out there that will point out something wrong. The air cleaner he is working on...the correct offset mushroom style air cleaner will be installed. The fuel tap lever was an oversight...yes, it should be there, but once the carpet went down I think it was a case of out-of-sight-out-of-mind. The taillights and trim on the windshield are incorrect apparently...simple fixes, but truly points that would improve the car. Large logo hubcaps versus the small...another detail (but they just look right on there dont you think?) . The car had a Petri banjo wheel on it until just recently...the owner swapped it out with the 3 spoke so he could use the banjo on another car. Learning all this is great stuff for the owner and myself (and the collective VW guys here)...so please keep em coming! (and Im sure...correction of these details could be negotiated with purchase!)

The Hebmuller body tag is now with the car. At the time of the photos it had not been re-fitted, but this important detail is present. The birth certificate from VW just came in the mail a short bit ago as well, so that is there. The Volkswagenwerk body tag is currently missing in action...hopefully it will be found. A search is also on for pre-restoration photos that are "somewhere" in the owner's stuff, but with 20 years past such things are easily hidden in belongings.

Price? Well...there have been two very serious offers, that in the general sense, are not that far off the asking price...so while it may be a "world record" asking price, I dont think it is far off market!! The owner has some flexibility as do most sellers, but he is in no hurry and has his "bottom line" that he will not cross...at this point no buyer has reached that point. Only time will tell when and at what price buyer and seller will meet.

Quality of the work on the car does seem fantastic though...what a dream machine!
+1
usariemen
13 years ago
Well, as far as I am aware you are active in the vintage VW scene for quite a while.
You had been into the details of splits many times.
If now this car is offered by your description in this way:

"...and the details are very correct."
"Showroom spotless everywhere you look."
"The restorer did his homework and made sure to do it "right".
"Signs that the restoration was done by someone who did their research and handled it the way they should!"
"..and with a restoration at a level that puts it on par with the very best in the world."

a flawless example would be expected.
The car is nice and if an owner wants it to be just as it is, it may stay that
way for ever. But it has a number of incorrect details and even missing parts.
At least on the pics that were shown.
So it did not match the description and maybe not the price. But that should be
decided by a buyer.
That it would be discussed in the scene can´t be a surprise.
I just hope a possible buyer will have "done his homework" and will not just buy after the description.
It is not easy to understand why the details that are enhanced now, where not corrected before it was offered with such a loud "marked barking".
Master of my domaine.
oldbug.com
13 years ago
Yes, I have been in the VW scene for a long time. But this does not mean I know everything!

This thread has educated me further about the car and brought to light a few small items that are incorrect. Im going to share these with the owner and see if he has any desire to correct them, but regardless, any potential buyer will be made aware of them. I will not mis-lead anyone, this is not how I operate.

Being closer to the source in Germany has its benefits. The earlier cars are much easier to find than in the US. I believe among the true VW enthusiasts there, the knowledge of the split era cars is much higher than in the US. My trip to Bad Camberg to witness the sea of split windows proves this to me. We are lucky to have 5 in attendance at the big shows here! As a result when discussed in an International forum such as this, I truly expect the corrections to occur...and I welcome them.

The car is still stunning even with these issues and I believe completely that it is one of the nicest examples out there.
I think anyone who is in the market for such a car would be wise to do their research about the model. In the end though, these vehicles are rare enough that your choices are limited when it comes to cars for sale...you simply take what you can get. And compared to the two others I have been involved with the sales of over the years, this one is by far the absolute best without question.
usariemen
13 years ago

Yes, I have been in the VW scene for a long time. But this does not mean I know everything!

oldbug.com wrote:



Well, we all kinda "study" the vintage VW history for more or less long
and it needs years to get aware of all the small details that where changed over the years and the differend models.
Nobody will ever know everything and the year 1949 was one of the most progressive ones with lots of changes shared over the year. So if you really want to have a 1949 car "correct", you will even have to care of the month it was built.
But you need not very much experience to see that the fuel reserve lever is missing or that there are no rubber bumpers at the front axle.
Things like that do not put it "... on par with the very best in the world."
So what you see on the pics does not totally match the description full of superlatives.
It is a good car allready and what´s wrong or missing can be changed quickly.
It just should not be talked better than it is and maybe it is overprised but that have to decide the potential buyers.
Master of my domaine.
pre67vw
  • pre67vw
  • Administration Topic Starter
13 years ago
Some of the details can be forgiven I think, like you say '49 is a difficult year. As I said before, the thread is not about picking fault with the car, it's about deciding if this car can be used by others as a kind of 'blueprint' for a correct Heb. If you have the money and want a Heb, you're probably not going to turn this one down because the fuel lever is missing.


It just should not be talked better than it is

usariemen wrote:



It's an advert, most ads on theSamba are talked up - look at the bullshit on the advert for the blue replica!!


maybe it is overprised but that have to decide the potential buyers.

usariemen wrote:



I think it's way overpriced, but I think all the Hebs sold in the last 5 years are way overpriced too, so I'm obviously completely wrong. To me it's getting to the point where they are no longer good investments, surely it's at the ceiling and can't go up much more...? Someone buying this expecting it to appreciate in value, is that realistic? I love Hebs and would love to own one, but if I had this much fun money then I'd prefer to have a little collection of early Porsches instead.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
usariemen
13 years ago

... it's about deciding if this car can be used by others as a kind of 'blueprint' for a correct Heb.

pre67vw wrote:



So, then this one can not be used. I do not know if there is one out there wich can be called 100% correct. If, then it would be for his particular building space of time. Not for all Hebs.

Some of the details can be forgiven I think.

pre67vw wrote:



They can, if it is the way an ownwer wants it to be.
They can not if we discuss its period correctnes.


It's an advert, most ads on theSamba are talked up.

pre67vw wrote:



Yes, if a idiot who does not know better praises his stuff as the holy grail, we know what to think about it. Or if he knows he talkes bullshit but hopes to find one who does not know, most will not grab into the shit.
If you type HebmĂźller in a search machine you will find tons of parts wich where never even near a Heb.
But this is not just an advert by anyone for anything.
Here is asked a world record price on a platform wich should be interested in a trustfull name. Seeing there more selling professionalism rather than VW professionalism can be discussed.
Master of my domaine.
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