So here's one to ponder...

After reading all the chat about Peppercorn on both here and Vzi, and given there's a Bad Camberg thread on the Samba which has turned to talk of only stock pre-57 vehicles being allowed to register for the event, I got to thinking what consitutes a Vintage VW and are we in danger of killing the desire to own and drive a Vintage VW long term for those that currently have no interest in them by stating an event as big as Bad Camberg should only accept stock car's rather than just pre-57 cars?

Controversial perhaps, but my view is a Vintage VW constitutes all vehicles manufactured before and up to the end of the 6v sloping headlight era irrespective of whether the vehicle has been modified or not. Of course this open's another debate which is when is a modified VW not a modified VW? For my money, if the OG body is still on the OG pan and the vehicle looks similar to how it would have done when new, then to an extent, every other modification is acceptable.

As many if not all of you know, my car is a comparitive rarity on our roads yet will probably be the only one that has been modified. The question the Peppercorn and Samba thread's make me ask myself is...when finished, will my car be a Vintage VW? I know the answer to this, but I just wonder because of its not acceptance due to it not being stock. Are we starting to alienate those that may want to restore, cherish and drive 50+ year old VW's in the future?

Over the past few months I've counted at least 15-20 nice early (56-65) project car's that have come up for sale, but I bet only 1 or 2 of them, if that, will be purchased for a full stock (Vintage VW?) restoration. Does that matter? If someone buys an OG UK RHD Oval that is really fit for the scrapyard, but fully rebuilds it into say an Old School Cal-Look car, does the fact it's not stock mean it's not a Vintage VW? I don't think so.

Let the debate begin!

...again!:d

I don´t know, I like to see a bit of variety at shows. A row of identical stock, black, 56 ovals soon gets boring!

And the more you get into it, the more difficult it becomes to decide where to draw the line on stock. Vintage speed? Not stock. Accessories? Also not stock. Ugly modern radial tyres (My favoriteon a vintage car!) definitely not stock!

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I go with that, although I do consider the 25/30hp eras the pick of the bunch. I'm not as hung up on the whole oval this, oval that syndrome as others are. I like anything with semaphores. ANY car 50+ years old that has never been nor needs welding, has the original engine and interior is special. As is any 50 year old car still on the road quite frankly.
Its a shame that 57 seems to be the cut of in a lot of cases.
I think it was a geat move by the historic club this year pushing the entry criteria of the display at Stanford hall out to include all pre 1960 cars.

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This has been debated time and again, but
I'll chip in again anyway :lol:

Camberg and Hessisch are special events, and to start allowing cars in that don't fit the theme dilutes them. To me it doesn't matter how rare your car is, that's not the criteria - I'd prefer to see a nice stock oval over a lowered whatever. Camberg has always been pre 57 - with coachbuilts up to 67. I don't see any reason to change it now...

I like all the sloping headlight models, hence this site.

What about old-speed? To me, it's period correct - that's what makes it acceptable to me.

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Sooo.... BRMS? 1965.
Fuchs wheels? 1966.
First mention of lowering the front is in a German book in 1965.
So the pieces are all in place.

I do know what you mean, but its tough to define it.

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So there you go then, camberg is pre 57 so that rules all of that out!

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Huh! There they go again with that Oval window fascism! I´m with HarveyPJ on this. That, or it should be up to 30horsers only!:p

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A Volkswagen ceases to be vintage after March 1953:twisted:

I don't want to burst anyones bubble, but from what I have found searching on the web it appears that the 'Vintage' era lasted from the end of world war 1, in 1919 until 1930.

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Yep, that's the definition of vintage outside of the VW world. I think the term Vintage VW is an American thing and was a way the magazines described old VW's that were not customised.

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uhuhuh... what a discussion, i hate it, what is vintage, what is stock, what is stock vintage....

if something is modefied, we are out of stock & vintage :lol: :lol: but who cares.....:lol: :beer: :wink:

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I like both but keep mine stock, exept my 1969 Westy. :wink:

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same as when a show is termed as "Veteren".
Suppose Rob will blame the Germans for that one.

It´s still better than "Oldtimer", or even "Youngtimer".

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It seems pretty straighforward, by year of course your car is a vintage VW, just like a roof-chopped vintage hot-rod is still a vintage car.
But at the same time, we should respect the rights of show organisers to limit shows to stock, or stock-appearance cars if that's what they want to do.
There's a place for everyone somewhere in this big ole world isn't there?

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I find it unacceptable that cars with semaphores aren't seen as vintage, they represent the second stage of transformation within the old beetle shape and the first step away from ovals, whilst still retaining
the semaphores and small lights. These are now over 50 years old. Years ago, vintage shows accepted ovals and splits when they were not even 50! I just find it so dull and boring to see just ovals and splits when it would actually enrich a line up to show the next stage, if only to serve as a means of comparison.
Mind you, if you don't have a Hebmüller, a pre-October 52 cabrio or a KDF (you can get away with a late 40s), you really are at the bottom of the vintage VW scene class system!:lol:
And the more fans strive to get their hands on one the fashionable above to uphold a certain credibility in the scene, the more common they're starting to get at shows. No offence meant, I love and grew up around these earlier cars but if that's all that is acceptable now, then let's all scrap our unworthy 'late' oldies and walk away from the hobby with an apology for having dared to mix with the vintage jet-set ! It's more hard work than fun really, these days...:lol:

Totally agree, but if you need to draw a line, where?

If all semaphore cars, what about the US cars?
If all 30hp cars, what about the other small window cars?
If all small window cars, what about the other 6 volt cars?
But then surely a 67 split can’t be excluded because it has 12 volts?

My personal take is that each classification of a VW (Vintage, Resto Cal, Cal Look, German Look etc etc) has a set of implied rules that mean different things to different people. If in your mind your car is a Vintage VW then that’s what it is to you, but you can’t expect for it to represent a Vintage VW to everyone else.

People will inevitably try to classify a car. If you want your car to be accepted as being within one classification, then you need to understand and follow what the majority view the implied rules as being. However, it’s your car and your rules – build it as you want and accept that others won’t have the same opinion.

All the more reason to encourage post 67 stockers to come to shows. That way, we can all get to feel smug and superior, not just the split Beetle owners.:lol:

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And this is how fun, enriching, interesting and really open-minded this hobby has become. Do I need to fill out a form or something?

Typically, the style of many pre-war motorcars was having running boards and a split rear window. This was the period of which the Beetle was conceived and to which it belongs. This pre-war period is considered by early car enthusiasts as the vintage period.

It follows that oval window-on Beetles are not really vintage, for a start they use curved glass for the rear window, which is a post-war modern item. They also represent a break away from the original pre-war design.

If it has the rectangular rear window it therefore has the larger screen which alters the car's profile, so is not the original shape, and really not vintage.

A proper vintage VW has a split rear window, cable brakes and a crash gear box. Thats it and nothing else :beer:

Semaphore indicators give any early car a really old feel though:wink:

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