Thank you for the lesson on the details and for the firm smack upside my face for my typical salesmanship :smile: (LOL!)
I have corrected the listing to mention the items discovered as incorrect and to add an image of the Hebmuller body tag.

I also removed a few of the over enthusiastic statements about it being "one of the best" ... it certainly is high in the ranks but only a side by side comparison would put it in that place.

Lets move forward now please.

What would make it one of the best? To me, it's not about what bits are bolted onto it (those bits are easy to swap) - one of the best for me would be original metal, original body number, matching numbers and zero rust. Even with incorrect parts, a Heb with original steel is better than a 'correct' car that has had everything replaced. But a Heb with everything replaced is still better than no Heb at all :lol:

I'd like to see pics of the restoration, to see how original and solid it was before, then maybe we could see that it was one of the best.

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Dear HEB - Friends :beer:

I'm back in the Heb - Cafe again and I'm DELIGHTED with what I see here; The best Heb - Minds (& VW Minds?) on the planet engaged in heated & ACADEMIC discussion on how "correct" Hebs should and should NOT be restored! You'll all note from my Avatar two things :

1) That I think a LOT about Hebs!

I have done so ever since my "Test Drive" in the incorrectly - restored Heb #350 back in 1977! I was 17 then, and USD 5,000. was a "High" asking price at the time since ovals (like my own) were going for between USD 300 & 2000. So I didn't buy it & let my good friend Pete Banholzer drive home with it instead. :cry: He told me that he sold it a few years later (in 1982??) to "someone in Connecticut" for USD 8,000. (a 60% increase) after 4 - 5 years. That was in spite of it riding on a 1962 Beetle Chassis & running a 1500 cc bus engine. Pete did these "improvements" himself at the HB Lantzsch Body Shop in Fairfax, Virginia & never pretended that his Heb was "Correct" or "Complete." He instead bragged about it's "improved handling & performance :omg: "


2) That I portray myself as a "Baby" in a "Heb - Carriage!"

YES, that is a real picture of me in 1961, and I "think" the carriage really WAS a Hebmuller coach - built :rofl: Thanks Rob for the graphic!

Even though I've spent more than 35 years (since meeting Pete) adoring, studying & chasing real & fake Hebs of any condition, I'm STILL a baby in the hobby because I never HAD a real one until now. And I therefore need a lot of "Pushing" in the right direction, ESPECIALLY because of the nasty condition of my Heb # 418 which sat rusting in a Pennsylvania barn for 30 years & THEN getting it's body (which was under restoration) badly burnt in a barn fire! (The "Other" infamous Heb fire) :cry:

Still, I was DAMNED HAPPY :thumbup: to become the owner of that amazing project because despite its sad starting condition, it IS a real Heb with: owner history, photo - history, original VIN plate, German title document, WagenBelegtKarte, & Birth Certificate from Wolfsburg. I paid USD 35,000 for the basket case in 2009, and am prepared to spend another USD 60,000 or even more ?? to complete it to as "Correct" & "Complete" a condition as possible. This is happening under the expert hand of Mark Schlachter of Metalkraft!

In a way, I'm LUCKY that the car was so nasty because all we could stand to do was to improve EVERYTHING about the car! Aside from that, Heb 309 is right next to mine & also needs "a little help :lol: " Therefore, Mark & I are wide open to all the "help" we can get right NOW, and don't wish to "weld once before studying 5 times!" This concern is ESPECIALLY heightened right now since the price of complete Hebs in any condition have reached such high levels. Once complete, we'll admit that they were the "most correct" possible with guidance from all of you. :beer: :beer: :beer: (And of course admit deficiencies or owner - preference parts)

When I saw the ad on "Old Bug . Com" about Heb 323, & with all the words of Correctness ....... I thought I'd found the "perfect model" for our projects, and therefore ASKED THE QUESTION any Heb Baby in a carriage would ask ........ "Is this Car Correct?? :?:





As a "Baby" in a Heb Carriage, I THANK him and all the others here who have analyzed the "correctness" of this Heb, and even sent me many PM's with specific restoration "tips." I will no longer look to this car to be my "model," but will take cues from it instead. Peter & others are now working with us to get the monthly changes "correct" between our two different project Hebs!

I guess even the seasoned professionals like Old - Bug get it wrong sometimes, but I admire that even he has thanked this forum for guiding him (along with the rest of us) towards the "correct" light.

OK, off my soap box ........ and time for another '49 Beers! :beer:

V ery W arm regards from Hong Kong,


ste VW e

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Hey Rob, Great idea! :idea: If you or any of the other "Talking Heb - Heads" here have a car in mind, I'd LOVE to see pics or (even better a referral to the owner) of your idea of such an unmolested late ' 49 car. 309 is october and 418 is late December.

Oldbug said on the Advert for 323:

"The car started out prior to restoration as a very complete and extremely solid example.
This is not one that was built out of parts or from a rusted wreck...this has always been a "good one".

As to the pre - resto photos of # 323, I'd certainly NOW ask to see them before buying this car at whatever price?? I think this would be helpful to us all. :thumbup:

Thanks again ......

ste VW e

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As mentioned previously, the owner is searching for the pre-restoration images. I have heard from three sources that knew the car prior to the restoration that the condition was very nice...one of which questioned why it was restored at all since it was so good.

But photos will be a big help. With any car having provenance and history is important, but even more so with a vehicle such as this.

In regards to correctness...we are here to help each other in this hobby and we are all here to learn. When issues such as the fuel tap were first brought up to me I smacked my forehead in disbelief that I did not catch it. Same with the body tags and when the hubcap logos were brought up, the date in the book came back to memory. These are thankfully all small things and easy to correct and I will urge the owner to do so for it will help the car be better.

I want to learn as well as teach. One of the things I enjoy about my job (other than the opportunity to play with VWs all day) is to be a source of information and a help to others. If anyone ever corrects me, I welcome it (but I make sure to check my facts in case they are mis-guided!)...again, it is a joy for me to be even connected to a car such as this and learning more about it, even though it is not in my garage, is well worth the time spent.

We all learn by collecting and combinating all those infos.
Pics of it prior to the resto and also during the resto when totally stripped would be interesting for an buyer and also for the hardcore community.

I saw your changes in the description. Karmann was making VW verts in 1949 as well as Hebmüller. There are just very few left of them.
When there are details changed now at the car it would be good to add front shocks.
They are also missing. You wrote the aprons are all correct. It´s hard to see on the pic but it seems that the rear one has no hole for the crank start.
As said, there maybe is no perfect one around. So this one surely is on a high level.
But getting squeezed out by the vintage VW nerds is hard to stand. Although we do not own the perfect car, we know how it would look like.

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According to Old Bug ..... the pictures are being found. It would be "nice" for the purposes of this academic discussion if some could be posted here?? PLEASE :thumbup:


Thanks Carsten for the "eagle eye" as Rob calls it. I will PM for more detailed guidance on our cars. For example, should BOTH Heb 309 & 418 have holes for a crank starter? When was this feature pulled? :?


BRING ON THE NERDS ..... and thanks again :beer:

ste VW e

P.S. Although Old Bug mentions reinstalling a body tag as a "small thing," It's NOT a small thing because if it's not on the car, people might assume that the car doesn't have one .... which raises questions of authenticity? I about died last year when I "lost" the VIN tag for 418 while travelling with it :cry: !!! Luckily it's now back in the shop with the car! Good Luck also to 323 in finding HIS! I suggest looking in the Zip - Loc Baggie at the bottom of his shaving kit :thumbup:

P.S.S. HEBBY EASTER !!

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ste VW agen

The body tag is a small thing and easy to put back on. I agree completely that it is silly that it was not put back on before the photos were taken.
This like having a famous painting without a signature!

Thanks Randy for coming to the classroom here, and for showing us some new clues to the authenticity of our current "study car!" And it's great that you've posted the Heb Aufbau plate along with the stamped Heb - number from the body of Heb 323.

Lucky for Heb people, these cars have at least 4 "signatures" and not just one like a famous painting!

1) Stamped Heb number on front panel (If panel is original and readable?)
2) Volkswagen VIN plate
3) Heb Aufbau Plate
4) Stamped VIN number on the Chassis
5) Any more I need to know about?

I wonder how many Hebs out there Peter & Claus have all 4 of these boxes ticked & matching!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh :thumbup:

With most I suppose, the missing ones are compensated for by "The Artist / Restorer" himself :d

Hebby Day!

ste VW e

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At first I wanted to say just yes.
But I then was not that sure any more.
I used to think the crank start hole stayed stock all the way through 1949.
But then there was suddenly in my mind that it was dropped in october.
I do not know where from that thought came but I am not sure now.
I looked up my literature but have not yet found any evidence for the date of the change.
A problem is that it stayed an option that you could order with a new car for years.
So even later cars with the hole are no proove the stock hole was dropped later.
Actually I do not dare to say that nr.309 or nr.323 had the hole when they came from the factory. Some cars where finished at Hebmüller within a couple of weeks, others took two months. So if the original VIN is known, it should be checked when exactely the basic car was made in Wolfsburg. If it was october or earlier, it had the hole for sure.
If it was later, it not necessary had it. Only if ordered as an option.
Does the nr.418 has its Heb body tag? With the build up date?
From the VIN I have it should be an later december 1949 car and I guess it was built up at Hebmüller in early january 1950. It it was found with an hole in the apron I would stay that way.
Anyone out there who has some proof when it was dropped in the series?
I´d like to know that for sure.

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The birth certificate of this car is December 17th 1949 with a destination of Gloeckler, Frankfurt/Germany.
It was originally black with ivory sides.

:thumbup: Thanks much Randy for coming to the front of the class here with the Birth Certificate "Fahrzeug - Identitatats - Urkunde" for the car you are selling. It would be great if you could come up with the VIN plate for this car too :beer:

Our interest in Heb 323 & it's "correctness" becomes EXTRA :idea: CLEAR when you compare your fully - restored car to the two currently being restored at Metalkraft :

1) Heb 309 - Chassis / VIN 1 - 0126874 / 1949 Stamp
Left Heb - Werke on December 14, 1949

2) Heb 323 - Chassis / VIN ????????
Left Heb - Werke on December 17, 1949

3) Heb 418 - Chassis / VIN 1 - 0138073 / 1949 Stamp
Left Heb - Werke on January 18, 1950

These 3 cars all left Hebmuller within a month of each other (give or take a few holidays), yet the chassis numbers of 309 & 418 are over 11,000 apart from each other. This seems to indicate that the HEB BODIES would be more similar but it would be THE CHASSIS and RUNNING GEAR which would tend to differ more :unsure: ?

Sure would be great to see those "Before" pics for 323, and perhaps even have a few words with the restorer. Sorry to keep giving you more homework ............. but through this discussion, ALL our cars get better :beer:

Thanks Again,

steVWe

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Carsten / Anyone, see the VIN data on 418 on the previous post, Thanks for whatever extra insight you can provide. Indeed the Apron on the car as found DID have the hole so we'll restore it that way. For 309, shall we assume it's DEFINITE??

Vielen Dank :beer:

ste VW e

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I have notice a few things that seems to be incorrect.

The speedo is a later one with shift indicators. On 1949 no red indicators were painted.

Wrong type of pulley on the generator. There is an earlier one on 49-50 with bigger inner diameter.

No rubbers on the pedals.

Looks like repro stainless trims on the side insted of polished aluminium.

The painting on the steering column, gearshift, handbrake and seat frames looks a little bit too bright.

The standard steering wheel is from a standard oval. The profile is different on a early standard steering wheel from 49-50.

The card boards for the glove boxes shall be painted in black.

Restamped engine number.

Sambaguy

Well, 309 seems old enough to have the crank start anyway.
If the 418 was found with an factory looking hole I would stay that way.

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There are a lot of small details wich are not perfect or "wrong".
That is not a huge problem. There is maybe not one car around wich is 100% perfect.
We just complained that there was said this is all correct.
For the steering wheel. There where ivory colored ones wich had the shape of the later standard wheels and not the "thumb groove" of the early ones. But there where realy such ones in the very first export models in mid 1949. But for that particular car they are even too old. It should have had the usual "batwing" style.

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I found a note in the progressive refinements list.
It just says "crank start feature dropped in oktober 1949" without a day or a chassis number.
But it was possible to get it as an option on later cars.
Carsten

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Hi Randy!

Any luck coming up with those pics of the car pre - resto? I think everybody would delight (or cry) in seeing the nice original car that was used as the basis for this fine restoration? Peter and I thought we had some, but from your reported VIN number of 126888, they were early shots of a CLOSE :drool: but different Heb!

We wish you good luck with the sale, and would hope that the new owner will appreciate all this good chatter about his new car! I'll buy him the first beer if he comes in here :beer: !!

V ery W arm greetings,

Ste VW e

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Thanks Again Carsten! :beer:

Well it looks therefore that we'll go ahead with the plan to retain the "Crank Start Feature" on both cars; especially so on # 418 cuz the old apron had it when we started. Mark is focusing on the engine bay right now and your "correct" info is timely and much - appreciated. :thumbup: And for # 323, it looks like the car could be considered "correct" either WITH or WITHOUT the crank starter feature?

By the way (and I may have missed it along the way) Can you tell us what number is your famous "I Got You, Heb" heb?

ste VW e

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Hello there Heb folks.
Bear in mind that the body's were picked of the production line at vw with no roof on and put on a train towards Wuppertal. There they started on the bodys but the work was not done in a few days...some cars stayed a bit langer in the heb plant then the average VW sedan in wolfsburg.
The floorpans were transported separate. They were stashed in the hall with one door...
First in was last out...Get it? The same with the body's. That is why the chassis numbers are not corresponding to bodynumbers as you whould think. At vw they did but not at Karmann nor at Hebmuller.


And yes, the crank start hole was an option for beetles later then okt 49.

Greetings. Peter  hebfactory002s.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.  Numriser.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.

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