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Rattletrap
14 years ago

i own loads of nazi memerobilia does that mean i'm banned and a 'nutter'!!

356boy wrote:


This is the second Nazi swipe my thread has taken. 😶

I don't see the attraction in collecting anything that relates to the Nazis.:?

Nazism is a huge stain on the Beetle's background, and a reason that it is hated by some, (James May of Top Gear is an example).

As far as Kubels or Schwimms are concerned, the same applies, and I personally would not want one. I think that even those owned by Volkswagen are displayed in a 'fully decomissioned' state; no machine guns etc. Even the VW38 would be considered an iffy car to have by some, given its dubious background. Many would consider the Tatra T97 a more acceptable car in a car collection.

Regarding the T97, the reason for this thread, and in relation to Rob's question, Porsche admitted to 'looking over his friend - and Tatra designer - Ledwinka's shoulder' while designing the Volkswagen. Then there is the point that when Hitler invaded Czech he ordered production of the T97 stopped, and examples destroyed. He however allowed production of its big brother the V8 air-cooled T87 to continue, a car his officers loved to cruise the autobhanns in during the War.:wink:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
pre67vw
14 years ago


Regarding the T97, the reason for this thread, and in relation to Rob's question, Porsche admitted to 'looking over his friend - and Tatra designer - Ledwinka's shoulder' while designing the Volkswagen. Then there is the point that when Hitler invaded Czech he ordered production of the T97 stopped, and examples destroyed. He however allowed production of its big brother the V8 air-cooled T87 to continue, a car his officers loved to cruise the autobhanns in during the War.:wink:

Rattletrap wrote:



None of which answers my question, what was the lawsuit actually about? Are there any official documents? Even if Hitler did order the production of the T97 to be stopped, this is not the responsibility of VW.

"Well, sometimes I looked over his shoulder and sometimes he looked over mine" while designing the Volkswagen

"Porsche" wrote:

Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
lifeintheslowlane
14 years ago
I don't see Hitler stopping production of the Tatra as proof of anything.

Ask any manufacturer if they would stop the production of a product in direct competition with their own, if they could.

Of course they would.
John.
Rattletrap
14 years ago

What is actually known about the court case/settlement? It could of course just have been a back payment of royalties over some design patent. Porsche was keen on the individual designers filing their own patents, so for example Kommenda had many patents relating to the Beetle. It could have been that Porsche never stole anything, but used ideas in good faith And then Volkswagen had to settle up after the war...

pre67vw wrote:


Apparently in the 1960s Volkswagen paid Tatra 3,000,000 Deutsche Mark in compensation, rather a lot I'd say for back payment of royalties over some design patent.:?


I don't see Hitler stopping production of the Tatra as proof of anything.

Ask any manufacturer if they would stop the production of a product in direct competition with their own, if they could.

Of course they would.

lifeintheslowlane wrote:


I don't think that the Tatra T97 could ever have been competition for Hitler's KdF Wagen, it was about 4 times as expensive, and was not intended by Tatra as a cheap 'People's Car'. It was the essence of the design that Porsche is said to have copied – and very cleverly too – for the Beetle.

Its clear that rather than because of a competition risk, Hitler wanted the T97 removed to clear the evidence of Porsche's doings.:wink:

I think that the T97 is an attractive car for a '4-door Beetle' under its skin. Note the VW prototype style protruding headlights…

 Tatra T97 side profile.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
JD
  • JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
14 years ago


Its clear that rather than because of a competition risk, Hitler wanted the T97 removed to clear the evidence of Porsche's doings.:wink:

Rattletrap wrote:



I thought the story was it was because Wehrmacht officers kept killing themselves in Tatras, due to the high speed and - ahem - "challenging" handling?
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
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pre67vw
14 years ago

Apparently in the 1960s Volkswagen paid Tatra 3,000,000 Deutsche Mark in compensation, rather a lot I'd say for back payment of royalties over some design patent.:?

Rattletrap wrote:



Not when you consider how many cars had been produced by then, plus damages that could be claimed due to unpayment of royalties.


Its clear that rather than because of a competition risk, Hitler wanted the T97 removed to clear the evidence of Porsche's doings

Rattletrap wrote:



I wouldn't say that is clear at all, is there any shred of proof to back this claim?

Next you'll be claiming that the entire war was just to cover up Porsche's plagiarism and the whole thing just got out of hand...
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
Rattletrap
14 years ago


Next you'll be claiming that the entire war was just to cover up Porsche's plagiarism and the whole thing just got out of hand...

pre67vw wrote:


That's an interesting angle Rob… Hitler did seem very keen to invade Czech…:p
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
JD
  • JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
14 years ago
In fact some evidence that Adolf actually did order production stopped would be nice to see. Tatra were building weapons IIRC. Perhaps if it is the case, it was simply to free up production capacity for that purpose.
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
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2splits
14 years ago
The real beetle prototype?

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Kevin

-51 Split Rag
-58 Ghia Cab with Okrasa
-57 356
Rattletrap
14 years ago

I thought the story was it was because Wehrmacht officers kept killing themselves in Tatras, due to the high speed and - ahem - "challenging" handling?

JD wrote:


No, that wasn't the flat 4 T97 but the big V8 T87, both cars having the 'swing-axle' rear the same as the Beetle, or should I say the Beetle had the same as the Tatras.:twisted:

The T87 became known as Czechoslovakia's secret weapon, so many Nazi officers were killed driving them to extreme. Hitler eventually banned officers from driving them, although the T87 was a car he liked and admired. This car has a large and heavy V8 engine in the back remember. I know from driving my T87 you have to treat it with complete respect, else it will turn around and bite you. These cars can exceed 100mph, pretty good for a 1930s pre-war car.8)
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
GKL 7
14 years ago

In fact some evidence that Adolf actually did order production stopped would be nice to see. Tatra were building weapons IIRC. Perhaps if it is the case, it was simply to free up production capacity for that purpose.

JD wrote:




First name terms James?

This car is Butt Ugly,no mistake
 resource.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rattletrap
14 years ago

First name terms James?

This car is Butt Ugly,no mistake

'50 Karmann wrote:


An oddity yes, but ugly… I wish I had a pound for every time I'd been told that about the Beetle – which I think is a very nice-looking well proportioned car.

The difference in the two is the :omg: jaw-dropping gawping that the Tatra attracts:omg: while people often just walk past the VW:mellow: (if you like that sort of thing).
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
JD
  • JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
14 years ago

First name terms James?

'50 Karmann wrote:



Heh heh!

I really like those Tatras actually. Looks like Flash Gordon should be driving it. Shame about the dire panel fit on that example. If it was only smooth, it would look 10x better.
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
UserPostedImage
Rattletrap
14 years ago

The 'Real Beetle prototype' thread is another ambling example of the type of thread I dislike. The basis of the thread is interesting and clearly VW paid Tatra a huge amount of money for something - but thats about the only 'fact' that we know, the rest is just 7 pages of guesswork and supposition.

pre67vw wrote:


Volkswagen seldom make mention of Hitler's influence on the birth of the Beetle and consequently the existence of their company. So we can assume that too is a myth, along with the theory that Hitler's bullying probably drove Porsche to 'borrow' ideas from his friend Ledwinka to get the dictator's pet project underway.

By the way thanks for the kind comment on my thread. The lurkers and non-contributors make these forums the interesting place it is I guess, although blank pages are not my thing.:bored:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
pre67vw
14 years ago
You're welcome. Stick to facts and the thread may start to get interesting.

What (if anything) was 'stolen' by Porsche? The body of the Beetle was designed by Kommenda and there are patents to support this, so it wasn't 'that' that was stolen by Porsche... Franz Reimspiess has patents on the engines, etc etc so exactly what was the settlement over? Until we know what Tatra's specific accusation was we won't know what VW felt they had no argument for.

Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
GKL 7
14 years ago
How many DM were equilavent to the £ in 1967?Anyone.
The only info i can find is that when Germany dropped the DM and went to € on the 01/01/99.1.95 DM was the same as 1€.
So even based on this exchange rate of 1999 VW paid Tatra approx €155,000.

Now i know the claim went back to before WW2.
But stealing a design is stealing a design,especially as by 1967 VW was a world force,when they agreed to settle.

So is that really a great deal of money,even then for stealing someones design.The design that you then went on to sell 21 million of.What was the amount of Beetles that had been produced by 1967?

If i had been the Tatra company i would have regerded myself as having missed out.
vintagebug
14 years ago

How many DM were equilavent to the £ in 1967?Anyone.
The only info i can find is that when Germany dropped the DM and went to € on the 01/01/99.1.95 DM was the same as 1€.

'50 Karmann wrote:



I haven't found any info on the UKP- DM exchange rate in 1967 George, but here's what it was worth against the USD (found this from Wikipedia)- "The pound was eventually devalued by 14.3% to $2.40 on 18 November 1967."

I wish it was still at $2.40... :roll:


Dave
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading"
vintagebug
14 years ago
I found this- in 1967 1 USD = 3.9870 Deutsche Mark...

so I think that would mean £1 = 9.5688DM.

Wow, that sounds a lot!! :shock:

Dave
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading"
GKL 7
14 years ago
According to that Dave.
VW paid Tatra £75,244.54.
That can't be right.
For stealing a design that went on to sell more than 21 million units.
vintagebug
14 years ago

It doesn't sound much, does it? Even for as long ago as 1967. I agree with you, that can't be right.
Dave
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading"
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