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Posted by: overrestored - 25 March 2008 16:06:21
Christian... Congratulations on your new secret. But there are plenty of cars for sale! Les's car is probably still for sale. I think that the secret of VW coachbuilts is just about to be gone though... Two museums keep raising the prices! There are two other Beeskows for sale... as well as two Lawrences. a Dannenhauer is for sale... at $225,000.us There are two Wendlers for sale A Beutler is for sale A Heb is for sale too Don't contact me though.. try www.paulrussell.com/ there are other vw coachbuilts for sale above 200,000 us Next year VW coachbuilts will be the theme at Amelia Island concours. I think next year everyone will know about vw coachbuilts.

Posted by: overrestored - 25 March 2008 16:06:21

Christian... Congratulations on your new secret. But there are plenty of cars for sale! Les's car is probably still for sale. I think that the secret of VW coachbuilts is just about to be gone though... Two museums keep raising the prices! There are two other Beeskows for sale... as well as two Lawrences. a Dannenhauer is for sale... at $225,000.us There are two Wendlers for sale A Beutler is for sale A Heb is for sale too Don't contact me though.. try www.paulrussell.com/ there are other vw coachbuilts for sale above 200,000 us Next year VW coachbuilts will be the theme at Amelia Island concours. I think next year everyone will know about vw coachbuilts.

Posted by: Tina - 26 March 2008 15:31:35
plenty yes, but not cheap any more we paid for 2 splittys 10.000 each................................

Posted by: mrsherbie - 26 March 2008 17:18:26
I would love a D&S but at $200k it is more expensive than a genuine 50's Porsche speedster or up there with early Carrera's. But I dont see that the coachbuilts have quite such a competitive market pull & current value as these Porsches. Certainly far less buyers? I guess its that old game, you can ask what you want for something, whether you get it or not is a different matter, and if there are just 1 or 2 buyers who will pay it out there then you got lucky. But its a far more dicey game than investing in the old Porsche market the way I see it. (But then I have never owned one :D)

Posted by: mrsherbie - 26 March 2008 17:18:26

I would love a D&S but at $200k it is more expensive than a genuine 50's Porsche speedster or up there with early Carrera's. But I dont see that the coachbuilts have quite such a competitive market pull & current value as these Porsches. Certainly far less buyers? I guess its that old game, you can ask what you want for something, whether you get it or not is a different matter, and if there are just 1 or 2 buyers who will pay it out there then you got lucky. But its a far more dicey game than investing in the old Porsche market the way I see it. (But then I have never owned one :D)

Posted by: overrestored - 26 March 2008 17:46:40
I agree that there is very limited market for coachbuilts at these high prices. Investment wise... a Porsche does have a larger audience. But I don't think coachbuilt vw cars are bought by investors. They are not good investments. It is almost always a money losing experience to buy and restore a Coachbuilt car I would bet. The joy is from owning something unique and rare... rather than valuable. Good Porsche Speedsters... here in the states... at the level of this D&S... are all 200,000 dollar cars now though. I have seen several sell for over 200k. I guess it all comes down to one buyer. There is an amazing amount of new money out there buying cars right now... and if someone really wants a unique car... the D and S is certainly going to stand out against a bunch of Speedsters. Would you rather have the speedster... or the D&S? if you are worried about selling it later... the speedster is the choice. If you don't care... well I think then the D&S. So it comes down to how much money a given person is willing to risk I guess. I hate it that these cars have gotten so expensive. I hate it that Gullwing Mercedes are 600,000 dollar cars too. Even the early 911's are approaching 100,000 us$ now. I guess the trick is to get out the old crystal ball... and try to understand which cars are available right now... that you think you will really wish you had bought in about 20 years. I just bought a 1995 993 Porsche... because it was a rare color and low miles and all original. It is a bit too much car for my ego right now... But I think in another 10 years they will be harder to find like this and I really like driving it. So I am betting that these cars are at the bottom right now. Other cars like the two door mercedes coupes from the 1970's are good buys right now... and will get better and better. Any cool 1970's or 1980's unusual or rare car... with a racing history... or with a performance history or other thing that people loved when new... is going to be great car in a few years. I think that the 1978 and 1979 vw westfalias are great deals... Vanagon Synchro campers are already way more expensive than when new. I am seeing VW diesel rabbit pickups being restored... 1973 Sport Bugs are being restored. There are still deals out there. You just have to look ahead. Eric

Posted by: overrestored - 26 March 2008 17:46:40

I agree that there is very limited market for coachbuilts at these high prices. Investment wise... a Porsche does have a larger audience. But I don't think coachbuilt vw cars are bought by investors. They are not good investments. It is almost always a money losing experience to buy and restore a Coachbuilt car I would bet. The joy is from owning something unique and rare... rather than valuable. Good Porsche Speedsters... here in the states... at the level of this D&S... are all 200,000 dollar cars now though. I have seen several sell for over 200k. I guess it all comes down to one buyer. There is an amazing amount of new money out there buying cars right now... and if someone really wants a unique car... the D and S is certainly going to stand out against a bunch of Speedsters. Would you rather have the speedster... or the D&S? if you are worried about selling it later... the speedster is the choice. If you don't care... well I think then the D&S. So it comes down to how much money a given person is willing to risk I guess. I hate it that these cars have gotten so expensive. I hate it that Gullwing Mercedes are 600,000 dollar cars too. Even the early 911's are approaching 100,000 us$ now. I guess the trick is to get out the old crystal ball... and try to understand which cars are available right now... that you think you will really wish you had bought in about 20 years. I just bought a 1995 993 Porsche... because it was a rare color and low miles and all original. It is a bit too much car for my ego right now... But I think in another 10 years they will be harder to find like this and I really like driving it. So I am betting that these cars are at the bottom right now. Other cars like the two door mercedes coupes from the 1970's are good buys right now... and will get better and better. Any cool 1970's or 1980's unusual or rare car... with a racing history... or with a performance history or other thing that people loved when new... is going to be great car in a few years. I think that the 1978 and 1979 vw westfalias are great deals... Vanagon Synchro campers are already way more expensive than when new. I am seeing VW diesel rabbit pickups being restored... 1973 Sport Bugs are being restored. There are still deals out there. You just have to look ahead. Eric

Posted by: mrsherbie - 26 March 2008 19:01:16
Yes I agree with everything you say above because you are right of course. Yes I would rather the D&S. and not just because everyone annoyingly feels the need to tap your speedster expecting it to be a fibreglass kitcar either! But in this currently unstable global economic climate, the UK is iffy enough, but the US Government seems to be on a rocky roadtrip to ethical, global & political suicide at the moment to the eyes of the rest of the world?! Surely a lot of people will be thinking twice before big spending, keeping the cash safe in your pocket, just in case.. I feel also it is sad when a particular car becomes so far out of reach. The good thing about beetles is that if you try really hard it is possible to own virtually any type/year eventually, even kdf's. But when cars tip over $100k that is it for most people, its sad to think that those few cars will now forever be out of reach regardless how hard you try. There is such a downside when things increase in value, Owens retired parents used to use the 59 samba all the time and for holidays, but now they won't use it at all, for the sake of being pestered by people who offer to buy it every time they stop at a petrol station, and even we consider in advance where it will be parked safely every time we plan a trip and will need to leave it anywhere. A lot of the fun is taken away. [quote="overrestored"] I am seeing VW diesel rabbit pickups being restored... [/quote] :lol: My partner just bought a special edition one yesterday and I laughed at him :lol: And 993's have been popular here for ages, its the early 996's that are on the bottom. Our beaten up 996 Cab was hard to shift last year. Pass me the special Eric crystal ball, I want a go! I keep trying to make Owen buy me an 80s Skoda Rapid Cab but he just wont listen to me ! :lol:

Posted by: mrsherbie - 26 March 2008 19:01:16

Yes I agree with everything you say above because you are right of course. Yes I would rather the D&S. and not just because everyone annoyingly feels the need to tap your speedster expecting it to be a fibreglass kitcar either! But in this currently unstable global economic climate, the UK is iffy enough, but the US Government seems to be on a rocky roadtrip to ethical, global & political suicide at the moment to the eyes of the rest of the world?! Surely a lot of people will be thinking twice before big spending, keeping the cash safe in your pocket, just in case.. I feel also it is sad when a particular car becomes so far out of reach. The good thing about beetles is that if you try really hard it is possible to own virtually any type/year eventually, even kdf's. But when cars tip over $100k that is it for most people, its sad to think that those few cars will now forever be out of reach regardless how hard you try. There is such a downside when things increase in value, Owens retired parents used to use the 59 samba all the time and for holidays, but now they won't use it at all, for the sake of being pestered by people who offer to buy it every time they stop at a petrol station, and even we consider in advance where it will be parked safely every time we plan a trip and will need to leave it anywhere. A lot of the fun is taken away. [quote="overrestored"] I am seeing VW diesel rabbit pickups being restored... [/quote] :lol: My partner just bought a special edition one yesterday and I laughed at him :lol: And 993's have been popular here for ages, its the early 996's that are on the bottom. Our beaten up 996 Cab was hard to shift last year. Pass me the special Eric crystal ball, I want a go! I keep trying to make Owen buy me an 80s Skoda Rapid Cab but he just wont listen to me ! :lol:

Posted by: Tina - 26 March 2008 19:31:26
yes and no i sold few months ago my slim speedster 1989 with only original 12.000 km (original 7.500 mls) white, leather black, original A/C only 151 cars build ! i was trying to get 70 Eu, but, oh wonder, NO chance !!!!!!! the highest offer was 60 Eu experts said, this type of car will bring 100 - 120 Eu WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe in 10 yea(h)rs, or later, i guessss ! my neighbor has a 356 Speedster, California re import (about 1980) in just like new conditions, asking 170 Eu...................NO TRACK of a customer for this price yet............ 959 are cheap now, here you got my one [ATTACH]1056[/Attach]

Posted by: Tina - 26 March 2008 19:31:26

yes and no i sold few months ago my slim speedster 1989 with only original 12.000 km (original 7.500 mls) white, leather black, original A/C only 151 cars build ! i was trying to get 70 Eu, but, oh wonder, NO chance !!!!!!! the highest offer was 60 Eu experts said, this type of car will bring 100 - 120 Eu WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe in 10 yea(h)rs, or later, i guessss ! my neighbor has a 356 Speedster, California re import (about 1980) in just like new conditions, asking 170 Eu...................NO TRACK of a customer for this price yet............ 959 are cheap now, here you got my one [ATTACH]1056[/Attach]

Posted by: 2splits - 27 March 2008 01:14:30
[quote="mrsherbie"]but the US Government seems to be on a rocky roadtrip to ethical, global & political suicide at the moment to the eyes of the rest of the world?! [/quote] I just don't get comments like this from you (again), or their relevance to the VW community. The low dollar sure seems to benefiting you all.

Posted by: overrestored - 27 March 2008 05:35:37
I could go on for hours about what it feels like to be an American right now... but this is a vw forum I agree. (But just so you all know.. we are looking seriously at immigrating to New Zealand) All that aside.... a 1977 german beetle... is 31 years old now. so maybe pre77vw.com is in order. Not sure. I always hated that black tape on the bumpers... and the damn high seat backs and plastic dashboards. 20 years from now we will all look back at the great cars we passed over when they were cheap... back in 2008... when anyone could still buy a 356 Porsche coupe... or a ghia cabriolet. Back when they were only about 20 -40k US$

Posted by: overrestored - 27 March 2008 05:35:37

I could go on for hours about what it feels like to be an American right now... but this is a vw forum I agree. (But just so you all know.. we are looking seriously at immigrating to New Zealand) All that aside.... a 1977 german beetle... is 31 years old now. so maybe pre77vw.com is in order. Not sure. I always hated that black tape on the bumpers... and the damn high seat backs and plastic dashboards. 20 years from now we will all look back at the great cars we passed over when they were cheap... back in 2008... when anyone could still buy a 356 Porsche coupe... or a ghia cabriolet. Back when they were only about 20 -40k US$

Posted by: mrsherbie - 27 March 2008 09:03:20
[quote="2splits"] I just don't get comments like this from you (again), or their relevance to the VW community. The low dollar sure seems to benefiting you all.[/quote] Sorry comment is not obvious but yes it does affect us all and excess spending on luxury goods. The current poor state of the $ and as a direct link the £ is mostly due to the crash of the US invented sub-prime lending market fiasco. ie. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis]sub-prime crisis[/url] So YES there is already a noticeable tightening of UK spending and the housing market here IS now slowing quite fast, even the uk vw bus market appears to have stalled too. We were discussing it just this weekend. While the Euro will just keep getting stronger against both. So whilst this is a vw forum, I was'nt having a 'pop at USA' as I think you are trying to say? just that, this one big example above ( completely ignoring Iraq) has had a knock on effect globally in interest and spending that is just starting to filter down to the man on the street. And I was wondering if you were noticing it also?! But I digress too! :roll: :o :D

Posted by: mrsherbie - 27 March 2008 09:03:20

[quote="2splits"] I just don't get comments like this from you (again), or their relevance to the VW community. The low dollar sure seems to benefiting you all.[/quote] Sorry comment is not obvious but yes it does affect us all and excess spending on luxury goods. The current poor state of the $ and as a direct link the £ is mostly due to the crash of the US invented sub-prime lending market fiasco. ie. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis]sub-prime crisis[/url] So YES there is already a noticeable tightening of UK spending and the housing market here IS now slowing quite fast, even the uk vw bus market appears to have stalled too. We were discussing it just this weekend. While the Euro will just keep getting stronger against both. So whilst this is a vw forum, I was'nt having a 'pop at USA' as I think you are trying to say? just that, this one big example above ( completely ignoring Iraq) has had a knock on effect globally in interest and spending that is just starting to filter down to the man on the street. And I was wondering if you were noticing it also?! But I digress too! :roll: :o :D

Posted by: mrsherbie - 27 March 2008 09:33:43
[quote="Tina"]yes and no i sold few months ago my slim speedster 1989 with only original 12.000 km (original 7.500 mls) white, leather black, original A/C only 151 cars build ! i was trying to get 70 Eu, but, oh wonder, NO chance !!!!!!! the highest offer was 60 Eu experts said, this type of car will bring 100 - 120 Eu WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe in 10 yea(h)rs, or later, i guessss ! my neighbor has a 356 Speedster, California re import (about 1980) in just like new conditions, asking 170 Eu...................NO TRACK of a customer for this price yet............ 959 are cheap now, here you got my one[/quote] I wonder if 1989 is just not quite old enough yet. In 1989 my parents had a brand new black 911 LE turbo (it was lovely :D) So we have watched those and they dont seem to be increasing very quickly either. But I agree I dont see how the 959 can fail really. And if not, you can always use it to keep books on that rear bookshelf :D I lived in NZ for 8 years, yes, I think it is just about perfect, but... not many vw shows! :shock: :D

Posted by: mrsherbie - 27 March 2008 09:33:43

[quote="Tina"]yes and no i sold few months ago my slim speedster 1989 with only original 12.000 km (original 7.500 mls) white, leather black, original A/C only 151 cars build ! i was trying to get 70 Eu, but, oh wonder, NO chance !!!!!!! the highest offer was 60 Eu experts said, this type of car will bring 100 - 120 Eu WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe in 10 yea(h)rs, or later, i guessss ! my neighbor has a 356 Speedster, California re import (about 1980) in just like new conditions, asking 170 Eu...................NO TRACK of a customer for this price yet............ 959 are cheap now, here you got my one[/quote] I wonder if 1989 is just not quite old enough yet. In 1989 my parents had a brand new black 911 LE turbo (it was lovely :D) So we have watched those and they dont seem to be increasing very quickly either. But I agree I dont see how the 959 can fail really. And if not, you can always use it to keep books on that rear bookshelf :D I lived in NZ for 8 years, yes, I think it is just about perfect, but... not many vw shows! :shock: :D

Posted by: 2splits - 27 March 2008 17:21:37
[quote="mrsherbie"][quote="2splits"] I just don't get comments like this from you (again), or their relevance to the VW community. The low dollar sure seems to benefiting you all.[/quote] Sorry comment is not obvious but yes it does affect us all and excess spending on luxury goods. The current poor state of the $ and as a direct link the £ is mostly due to the crash of the US invented sub-prime lending market fiasco. ie. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis]sub-prime crisis[/url] So YES there is already a noticeable tightening of UK spending and the housing market here IS now slowing quite fast, even the uk vw bus market appears to have stalled too. We were discussing it just this weekend. While the Euro will just keep getting stronger against both. So whilst this is a vw forum, I was'nt having a 'pop at USA' as I think you are trying to say? just that, this one big example above ( completely ignoring Iraq) has had a knock on effect globally in interest and spending that is just starting to filter down to the man on the street. And I was wondering if you were noticing it also?! But I digress too! :roll: :o :D [/quote] I'm sorry, but I do take the comment "Moral Suicide" to be a pop.

Posted by: 2splits - 27 March 2008 17:21:37

[quote="mrsherbie"][quote="2splits"] I just don't get comments like this from you (again), or their relevance to the VW community. The low dollar sure seems to benefiting you all.[/quote] Sorry comment is not obvious but yes it does affect us all and excess spending on luxury goods. The current poor state of the $ and as a direct link the £ is mostly due to the crash of the US invented sub-prime lending market fiasco. ie. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis]sub-prime crisis[/url] So YES there is already a noticeable tightening of UK spending and the housing market here IS now slowing quite fast, even the uk vw bus market appears to have stalled too. We were discussing it just this weekend. While the Euro will just keep getting stronger against both. So whilst this is a vw forum, I was'nt having a 'pop at USA' as I think you are trying to say? just that, this one big example above ( completely ignoring Iraq) has had a knock on effect globally in interest and spending that is just starting to filter down to the man on the street. And I was wondering if you were noticing it also?! But I digress too! :roll: :o :D [/quote] I'm sorry, but I do take the comment "Moral Suicide" to be a pop.

Posted by: pre67vw - 27 March 2008 17:42:22
Lets keep off the subject of politics, or this thread is heading for a lock.

Posted by: '50 Karmann - 27 March 2008 18:34:25
When i had my cabrio restored,the guy who did the work said "Don't sell that car for another 10 years,in that time the price will have gone thru' the roof". The way things are going,it may not take so long. British self pride stopped us adopting the euro,how wrong was that? But as pointed out we shouldn't be going into politics. There is a guy lurking 'round here with a big key :wink:

Posted by: overrestored - 27 March 2008 20:22:51
The only trouble with new cars... and trying to figure which will be the "one" to have... is that nobody is gonna be reproducing the really hard stuff... like engine management processors. So you need to buy a low mileage original car now... rather than try and restore a cheap one later. I don't think it will be financially possible to restore these late model cars in the future. Just think of all the little electronic goodies that are so specific to each car these days. that plus all the environmental policies that may make restoration a lot more expensive. Chrome shops are some of the worst polluters in the world... as are oil based paints etc etc. YIKES!

Posted by: overrestored - 27 March 2008 20:22:51

The only trouble with new cars... and trying to figure which will be the "one" to have... is that nobody is gonna be reproducing the really hard stuff... like engine management processors. So you need to buy a low mileage original car now... rather than try and restore a cheap one later. I don't think it will be financially possible to restore these late model cars in the future. Just think of all the little electronic goodies that are so specific to each car these days. that plus all the environmental policies that may make restoration a lot more expensive. Chrome shops are some of the worst polluters in the world... as are oil based paints etc etc. YIKES!

Posted by: mrsherbie - 28 March 2008 09:59:07
[quote="2splits"] I'm sorry, but I do take the comment "Moral Suicide" to be a pop.[/quote] I was simply pointing out that prices are rising, but also people are being careful. Thats all. But if you wish to personally represent of the US government then thats your problem! :? :lol:

Posted by: JD - 28 March 2008 12:00:26
[quote="overrestored"]The only trouble with new cars... and trying to figure which will be the "one" to have... is that nobody is gonna be reproducing the really hard stuff... like engine management processors. [/quote] They'll be looking back and laughing at how primitive ECUs from the noughties were! I'm pretty sure that stuff will either still be available, or if not then at least bypassable with an aftermarket system. I'm pretty sure you could have your own Dannenhaur and Stauss built for less than 200,000 bucks!

Posted by: JD - 28 March 2008 12:00:26

[quote="overrestored"]The only trouble with new cars... and trying to figure which will be the "one" to have... is that nobody is gonna be reproducing the really hard stuff... like engine management processors. [/quote] They'll be looking back and laughing at how primitive ECUs from the noughties were! I'm pretty sure that stuff will either still be available, or if not then at least bypassable with an aftermarket system. I'm pretty sure you could have your own Dannenhaur and Stauss built for less than 200,000 bucks!

Posted by: '50 Karmann - 29 March 2008 19:29:12
[quote="JD"] I'm pretty sure you could have your own Dannenhaur and Stauss built for less than 200,000 bucks![/quote] Can't understand,how :?:

Posted by: JD - 29 March 2008 22:32:01
[quote="'50 Karmann"][quote="JD"] I'm pretty sure you could have your own Dannenhaur and Stauss built for less than 200,000 bucks![/quote] Can't understand,how :?: [/quote] Sheets of steel, and someone with English wheeling, gas welding and lead loading skills. Dannenhaur and Stauss [i]replica[/i] should I say? Mind you, looking at how much metal is replaced on some of the Hebmüller resurrections, replica probably isn't far off the mark for them either.

Posted by: JD - 29 March 2008 22:32:01

[quote="'50 Karmann"][quote="JD"] I'm pretty sure you could have your own Dannenhaur and Stauss built for less than 200,000 bucks![/quote] Can't understand,how :?: [/quote] Sheets of steel, and someone with English wheeling, gas welding and lead loading skills. Dannenhaur and Stauss [i]replica[/i] should I say? Mind you, looking at how much metal is replaced on some of the Hebmüller resurrections, replica probably isn't far off the mark for them either.

Posted by: overrestored - 30 March 2008 07:09:20
The keyword in reproducing a coachbuilt... or any other car... is REPLICA. the history is key... the provenance. I know that a lot of these cars are totally reworked. It is kind of hard to pin down what makes a real car a real car... but a replica just isn't the same. I think it would be really fun to build your own car however... but it would be better to build your own completely original car. That car would become valuable over time... like the other one offs... especially if it was a pretty design and well publicized.

Posted by: overrestored - 30 March 2008 07:09:20

The keyword in reproducing a coachbuilt... or any other car... is REPLICA. the history is key... the provenance. I know that a lot of these cars are totally reworked. It is kind of hard to pin down what makes a real car a real car... but a replica just isn't the same. I think it would be really fun to build your own car however... but it would be better to build your own completely original car. That car would become valuable over time... like the other one offs... especially if it was a pretty design and well publicized.

Posted by: JD - 30 March 2008 15:37:50
[quote="overrestored"]The keyword in reproducing a coachbuilt... or any other car... is REPLICA. the history is key... the provenance. I know that a lot of these cars are totally reworked. It is kind of hard to pin down what makes a real car a real car... but a replica just isn't the same. [/quote] This is a whole other discussion - but an intersting one. I read a fair amount about old warplanes and these are great for having almost everything replaced in order to get a wreck up to a flyable condition. Its still the same aircraft though. Ahem. Sure it is. You can wax lyrical about history and provenance all you like, but thats just a perspective that you bring to it, because you know about it. Think of it this way, for the sake of arguement. Say you have two Dannenhaur and Stausses sitting next to each other. One is a perfectly restored original and one is a new, but exact replica, just finished yesterday. You aren't told which is which and theres no way to tell the difference. How do you know which one to appreciate as a historic artifact, and which one to dismiss as merely a replica? To all intents and purposes, they are the same. One is just newer.[/i]

Posted by: JD - 30 March 2008 15:37:50

[quote="overrestored"]The keyword in reproducing a coachbuilt... or any other car... is REPLICA. the history is key... the provenance. I know that a lot of these cars are totally reworked. It is kind of hard to pin down what makes a real car a real car... but a replica just isn't the same. [/quote] This is a whole other discussion - but an intersting one. I read a fair amount about old warplanes and these are great for having almost everything replaced in order to get a wreck up to a flyable condition. Its still the same aircraft though. Ahem. Sure it is. You can wax lyrical about history and provenance all you like, but thats just a perspective that you bring to it, because you know about it. Think of it this way, for the sake of arguement. Say you have two Dannenhaur and Stausses sitting next to each other. One is a perfectly restored original and one is a new, but exact replica, just finished yesterday. You aren't told which is which and theres no way to tell the difference. How do you know which one to appreciate as a historic artifact, and which one to dismiss as merely a replica? To all intents and purposes, they are the same. One is just newer.[/i]

Posted by: harveypj - 30 March 2008 19:16:04
'Trigger's broom' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted by: overrestored - 30 March 2008 19:43:20
In the scenario where there was no way to tell which was which... there is no difference. I agree... there is no tangible difference.... In the purely technical sense... neither is better. It is a spiritual or intangible thing I suppose... but one cannot deny that if you know that one car was built by mr Dannenhauer and mr Stauss... even if it was highly restored and repanelled... and the other car was just built last week by a shop in Orange County... there is a world of difference. A very subjective subject... no real correct answers I think. My subjective feelings: one has stood the test of time... one is an icon. the other is a testament to that icon's success. I also agree with the Triggers Broom comment.

Posted by: overrestored - 30 March 2008 19:43:20

In the scenario where there was no way to tell which was which... there is no difference. I agree... there is no tangible difference.... In the purely technical sense... neither is better. It is a spiritual or intangible thing I suppose... but one cannot deny that if you know that one car was built by mr Dannenhauer and mr Stauss... even if it was highly restored and repanelled... and the other car was just built last week by a shop in Orange County... there is a world of difference. A very subjective subject... no real correct answers I think. My subjective feelings: one has stood the test of time... one is an icon. the other is a testament to that icon's success. I also agree with the Triggers Broom comment.

Posted by: JD - 30 March 2008 21:29:04
[quote="overrestored"] there is a world of difference. A very subjective subject... no real correct answers I think. [/quote] Not just very subjective - entirely subjective, I would say. There is no difference - unless you [i]are told[/i] that one is newer. I don't really feel the same as you about highly restored/reconstructed cars, where the visible history is washed away. Only about cars that are pretty much as they left the factory, including traces of ageing and use, though they are obviously few and far between. Where the history is visible in other words. I enjoy looking at all types and condition of vehicles BTW, including highly restored cars, (before anyone jumps on me). I'm just trying to illustrate my point. Tricky subject isn't it!

Posted by: JD - 30 March 2008 21:29:04

[quote="overrestored"] there is a world of difference. A very subjective subject... no real correct answers I think. [/quote] Not just very subjective - entirely subjective, I would say. There is no difference - unless you [i]are told[/i] that one is newer. I don't really feel the same as you about highly restored/reconstructed cars, where the visible history is washed away. Only about cars that are pretty much as they left the factory, including traces of ageing and use, though they are obviously few and far between. Where the history is visible in other words. I enjoy looking at all types and condition of vehicles BTW, including highly restored cars, (before anyone jumps on me). I'm just trying to illustrate my point. Tricky subject isn't it!

Posted by: '50 Karmann - 30 March 2008 22:01:46
[quote="overrestored"]one is an icon. the other is a testament to that icon's success.[/quote] Summed up in a sentence. There is no other way the two can be compared. Like a £50 note and a forgery.Maybe you can't see the difference but ones not worth £50.

Posted by: JD - 31 March 2008 00:15:52
[quote="'50 Karmann"][ ...but ones not worth £50.[/quote] It is if its good enough! :wink: :D

Posted by: mrsherbie - 31 March 2008 12:13:03
[quote="JD"][quote="'50 Karmann"][ ...but ones not worth £50.[/quote] It is if its good enough! :wink: :D [/quote] Only to someone wearing beer goggles.

Posted by: JD - 31 March 2008 12:58:14
[quote="'50 Karmann"] ...not worth £50.[/quote] Just like this! :lol: [img]https://forums.pre67vw.com/uploads/13626.jpg[/img]

Posted by: overrestored - 31 March 2008 19:53:57
JD, I understand what you mean about restored cars. The only cars I am buying lately... are totally original in every way. 100% original paint, engine, interior, chassis, etc. No restoration... no repair... no new trim... no paint touchup... no new rubber... My 1970 911t is like this... 36k miles... only parts replaced are wipers, tires and brakes... no chain tensioner upgrade... no modifications in any way. So I think in this respect we agree. Once the car has been restored or "overrestored"... it loses something. And thus if a restored car is sitting next to an exact replica... it isn't that much different. Whereas... a replica sitting next to an original unrestored car.. is a world of difference. Is this what you mean?

Posted by: overrestored - 31 March 2008 19:53:57

JD, I understand what you mean about restored cars. The only cars I am buying lately... are totally original in every way. 100% original paint, engine, interior, chassis, etc. No restoration... no repair... no new trim... no paint touchup... no new rubber... My 1970 911t is like this... 36k miles... only parts replaced are wipers, tires and brakes... no chain tensioner upgrade... no modifications in any way. So I think in this respect we agree. Once the car has been restored or "overrestored"... it loses something. And thus if a restored car is sitting next to an exact replica... it isn't that much different. Whereas... a replica sitting next to an original unrestored car.. is a world of difference. Is this what you mean?

Posted by: overrestored - 31 March 2008 20:09:25
JD, The trouble... is that with a lot of coachbuilts... they were not preserved well... thus they all need restoring. Edited here... to explain that I do feel cars should be driven!... not stacked away! end of edit. I only know of one Beeskow that is original and presentable. The rest were all too far gone to really be presentable... and thus they were restored... Mine needed about 20% of the passenger door re-skinned... the two license plate "eyebrows" replaced, and about 30 percent of the engine "decklid" replaced. Otherwise it is the original car under new paint. Anyway... for me... it kinda goes like this. with points for desireability. 100 points being the best. level one... 100 original cars level two... 50 restored original cars level three 35 rebodied original cars level four... 10 replica cars something like that anyway. good original is worth twice perfect restored in my mind. We just have a bit of disagreement on restored versus replica. I think we basically share the same opinion about top level cars... but we have a few degrees of difference down there on level 3 and 4.

Posted by: overrestored - 31 March 2008 20:09:25

JD, The trouble... is that with a lot of coachbuilts... they were not preserved well... thus they all need restoring. Edited here... to explain that I do feel cars should be driven!... not stacked away! end of edit. I only know of one Beeskow that is original and presentable. The rest were all too far gone to really be presentable... and thus they were restored... Mine needed about 20% of the passenger door re-skinned... the two license plate "eyebrows" replaced, and about 30 percent of the engine "decklid" replaced. Otherwise it is the original car under new paint. Anyway... for me... it kinda goes like this. with points for desireability. 100 points being the best. level one... 100 original cars level two... 50 restored original cars level three 35 rebodied original cars level four... 10 replica cars something like that anyway. good original is worth twice perfect restored in my mind. We just have a bit of disagreement on restored versus replica. I think we basically share the same opinion about top level cars... but we have a few degrees of difference down there on level 3 and 4.

Posted by: JD - 31 March 2008 21:17:49
Oh, I think we pretty much agree. I'm just trying to show a different viewpoint. :D Paint is a funny one though. It seems odd to get worked up over a thin layer of easily replaced cellulose protective coating, but when it lends so much to the look of the car, then it does seem to be important. Then again, there are plenty of old restorations now that have their own patina, after 20 years. Which looks great IMHO. I thought I had the original carpet in my car - until I found a reciept from 1986!! Its also true that, while in theory an [i]exact[/i] replica would be indistinguishable from an original car - in reality,that is seldom the case. Look at most repro parts. Another thing that really confuses me, was when I looked up the word "restore" and it was defined as "put back to original". I thought things were only original once? As soon as you change anything it is no longer original. Apparently not! We should probably all learn to worry less about this kind of thing. :D

Posted by: JD - 31 March 2008 21:17:49

Oh, I think we pretty much agree. I'm just trying to show a different viewpoint. :D Paint is a funny one though. It seems odd to get worked up over a thin layer of easily replaced cellulose protective coating, but when it lends so much to the look of the car, then it does seem to be important. Then again, there are plenty of old restorations now that have their own patina, after 20 years. Which looks great IMHO. I thought I had the original carpet in my car - until I found a reciept from 1986!! Its also true that, while in theory an [i]exact[/i] replica would be indistinguishable from an original car - in reality,that is seldom the case. Look at most repro parts. Another thing that really confuses me, was when I looked up the word "restore" and it was defined as "put back to original". I thought things were only original once? As soon as you change anything it is no longer original. Apparently not! We should probably all learn to worry less about this kind of thing. :D

Posted by: mrsherbie - 31 March 2008 23:04:12
[quote="overrestored"]JD, The trouble... is that with a lot of coachbuilts... they were not preserved well... thus they all need restoring. [/quote] We are learning this with our preA! We are finding it hard to get used to the fact that the interior cavity areas were not treated directly during original build process so there is a very light dusting of what is in effect surface rust in hidden areas that have never been exposed to damp. We are replacing floor in this car but yet both our beetles that are 5 years older! have almost perfect original floors and heater channels! The body treatment of the Porsche seems to be way behind what VW were doing to their brand new beetles at the same time! Dipping? certainly primering all the surfaces! It is very frustrating and annoying that the more expensive car is so much more fragile!

Posted by: mrsherbie - 31 March 2008 23:04:12

[quote="overrestored"]JD, The trouble... is that with a lot of coachbuilts... they were not preserved well... thus they all need restoring. [/quote] We are learning this with our preA! We are finding it hard to get used to the fact that the interior cavity areas were not treated directly during original build process so there is a very light dusting of what is in effect surface rust in hidden areas that have never been exposed to damp. We are replacing floor in this car but yet both our beetles that are 5 years older! have almost perfect original floors and heater channels! The body treatment of the Porsche seems to be way behind what VW were doing to their brand new beetles at the same time! Dipping? certainly primering all the surfaces! It is very frustrating and annoying that the more expensive car is so much more fragile!

Posted by: harveypj - 31 March 2008 23:12:19
:shock: Those 'rat look' boys have gone one step too far with this one :lol: [ATTACH]1053[/Attach]

Posted by: JD - 01 April 2008 00:10:32
Rubbish, it looks much better that way! What are you? Some kind of playa hater or something? [IMG]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/14735copy.jpg[/IMG]

Posted by: harveypj - 01 April 2008 09:55:12
:lol: Oh, now thats much better :lol: :lol:

Posted by: Tina - 02 April 2008 13:16:47
like new

Posted by: overrestored - 02 April 2008 19:43:57
and here... after a day or two with the italians. Maybe a few more weeks and it will look good as new! [ATTACH]1054[/Attach]

Posted by: overrestored - 02 April 2008 19:47:11
virtual restoration sure is a lot easier than actual physical restoration. I say we all pitch in some photoshop time and get this car back on the road! [ATTACH]1055[/Attach]

Posted by: 2splits - 04 April 2008 02:51:22
I very much agree with the "original" versus restored debate. I VERY MUCH prefer original, unrestored, perhaps not perfect cars over a perfectly restored car. I have owned many "original" cars including: - a 23,000 57 ragtop - a 85,000 52 hardtop - 57 356 coupe (currently own) - 51 60,000 mile 51 ragtop (currently own) I have enjoyed these cars greatly. I made a mistake when I restored my 40,000 original mile 55 convertible, and will not do so again. They are much more fun to drive, etc., when they are original. You don't have to worry about the mistakes and shortcuts other people made. The ONLY restored car I have bought that is actually at a standard I am happy with is my 58 ghia currently.

Posted by: 2splits - 04 April 2008 02:51:22

I very much agree with the "original" versus restored debate. I VERY MUCH prefer original, unrestored, perhaps not perfect cars over a perfectly restored car. I have owned many "original" cars including: - a 23,000 57 ragtop - a 85,000 52 hardtop - 57 356 coupe (currently own) - 51 60,000 mile 51 ragtop (currently own) I have enjoyed these cars greatly. I made a mistake when I restored my 40,000 original mile 55 convertible, and will not do so again. They are much more fun to drive, etc., when they are original. You don't have to worry about the mistakes and shortcuts other people made. The ONLY restored car I have bought that is actually at a standard I am happy with is my 58 ghia currently.

Posted by: Tina - 04 April 2008 12:24:15
THAT S WHAT WE ALWAYS SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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