International Vintage Volkswagen Forums

Our '56 Oval is getting to be a poor starter, and standing out in the cold and snow hasn't helped of course. Its 6 volt still, but doesn't seem to turn fast enough to start, and now doesn't.

I went out to buy a new battery but with prices starting at £110 decided to hold back to be sure we need one. Jon took the battery off the Oval and put it into his friend's '63 (6 volt still), after a few turns this car started. He then put his pal's battery into the Oval which too started, although it still seemed slow and also took a few turns.

My dilemma is do I buy a new battery or exchange the Oval's starter motor:? or both:omg:

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I had a similar problem with mine, although I was using 12v battery and a 6v starter so in theory it should still have turned fairly quickly. A few people told me to replace the starter motor bush when this problem occurs, which you can get for a few quid.

I did replace it and it was kippered, but I can't say 100% that it was the source of my problems because I also replaced the starter motor with a 12v one while I was at it.

My understanding of the mechanics of it are (and I could well be wrong) that the starter motor only has a bearing at one end and the other is floating, held in place by the bush. When the bush wears, the floating end isn't held in the correct place and then the starter no longer works correctly - sometimes turning slowly or sometimes just making a click.

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Thanks,:beer:

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before spending any money.. check the earths and starter motor connections.. with just 6v you cant afford to loose any of that "power" with poor connections.

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Certainly will. Weather permitting I'll be on it this weekend.:smile:

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This is so true and often over looked. Also if the bush is worn it lets the comutator move in the starter and if too worn then it can let it touch the outer magnet. You can check the battery by fully charging it let it stand for 2 hours in a well VENTERLATERD area. and doing a drop test on it. This is an opperation not for the faint hearted as the gas that is given off from a battery is exsplosive and can blow up in your face :thumbdn: :omg:



Andy W

Hmm, think I'll try all other options first. The battery is the old-fashioned black Bakerlite type, it might well split and explode.:omg:

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Thats ok but if the battery is u/s you will have spent all that time and money for nothing and still have to get a battery. Go to a propper battery supply out let and thay can do it for you. Its a tool that Goes across the termenals with a whopping great resistor and a volt drop meter on it you also check for cell gassing at the same time.



Andy W



Ps if you fit a starter bush in the transaxle the soke the bush for at least 24 hours before fitting as thay are made from sinterd brass and will soke up the oil thay need to be lubricated and not fitted dry or thay wont last too long ( well not in everyday use )

May I add my two-pennyworth !
Assuming the confirmed health/efficiency of the starter motor I would first of all ensure all ignition components are fit, then check the actual ignition timing : a couple of degrees retarded and sluggish turning over and a reluctance to fire could be mistakenly blamed on the battery.
The traditional hand-held "Load" tester comprises a heavy metal spring or coil resistor mounted between two "Prongs" with insulated handles between which a voltmeter is also fixed. Pressing the two probes onto the battery terminals simulates the load that the starter motor imposes, the voltmeter indicating the reduced power available to energise the ignition circuit.
Two points about the load tester : The voltmeters are usually of a " Centre Zero " type, the needle swinging away from the prong on the positive pole of the battery ( Handy to check terminal polarity !) and most "Load" or "Drop" ( ie Voltage Drop" ) testers are stated to be suitable for use on batteries up to SIXTY ampere/hour capacity, lower than the capacities of six-volt batteries for VW's ! Accordingly, a low or poor test on a 6-volt VW battery is more-ominous than a similar reading on a smaller six-volt. This type of tester should only be applied for a similar time to that during which you'd expect the vehicle to have started.If the voltage reading continues to "Sink" after three or four seconds on a fully-charged battery then watch for a cell to "Short" or "Gas" ( And Smell !)
The best check for a battery's state of charge is to use a small volume/capacity hydrometer
which indicates the acid's specific gravity ( Small hydrometer because there's not too much acid in each cell from which to draw a test sample!). Avoid contamination by trying not to transfer residual amounts of acid from one cell to another.
At normal room temperatures ( 20 C to 25 C ) a healthy gravity between 1.250 and 1.280 is ideal. Readings between 1.200 and 1.240 indicate partial discharge and a charge-up needed but lower than 1.200 point to a flat battery and longer charge needed. Some hydrometers have colour-coded zones indication acid strength ( High, Medium or Low)
A battery will give a false load-test result if the gravity is below 1.240. If you have a variable charge RATE ( Not 6 or 12 volt ) charger ( ie High or Low settings ) it is advisable, especially in cold weather, to commence charge at a low amperage
There being only three cells to compare on a six-volt battery, variations in gravities are harder to detect than on six-cell 12-volts. Variation between cells of 0.1 s.g. or more after charging are usually indicative of a suspect cell which will "Gas" visibly when load-tested. After charging and prior to load test, remove the three cell filler/vent caps and blow across the battery lid to dissipate the explosive hydrogen given off in the charge process.
Always abide by the golden rule to prevent sparking an explosion ! Starting charge : Crocodile clips on to battery then switch on charger. When finished : Switch OFF charger then remove crocodile clips ! No unexpected sparking nor loud, corrosive bangs !
Off on a tangent, many modern sealed batteries boast a "Magic Eye" charge indicator. This is a simple optical float hydrometer device calibrated to float green when OK, usually yellow when part discharged and clear with a red circle or plain black when discharged. Bear in mind that this device only indicates the state of charge of that ONE cell, not the whole battery.
It was a widely accepted " rule of thumb" in the days of only moulded hard rubber batteries that for every degree centigrade that the temperature drops below freezing point, batteries lose Five per cent efficiency. Minus five degrees robs a battery of a quarter of its power potential, 60 amp/hr down to 45 and pro-rata onwards, minus ten equals half power !.
I personally have revived batteries from motorway-stranded lorries so flat that the electrolyte froze ! (It had reverted to water !). FLAT is not always FAULTY ! But there again, you can recharge a flat one but can't re-incarnate the dead !
In an emergency to get started in very cold spells you might consider taking the battery indoors for a warm ! Standing a cold battery in a bowl of warm and then progressively warmer water works wonders. I would not, however, recommend standing your battery on the AGA nor in front of your log fire - A spell in hot water within an inch of the lid or deck and an occasional agitation enabling thorough warming of the acid works wonders !
Hope my contribution is of some help . John aka Jollychuffy

What a desriptive post Jollychuffy! You give some good safety tips as well, which makes me realise how careless most of us are when moving or charging car batteries. I take it by the length of your post that 'Mrs Jollychuffy' allows you more undisturbed computer time than 'Mrs Old Blue' or my two sons do!:beer:

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I have removed and cleaned the connections on the starter, also replacing the brass push-on electrical connection. The old one was partially rotted away and loose.

Car now starts better, still hesitant, but it does start and Jon can use it.

Eventually in warmer weather though, I'll remove the starter and check the bush and other points with maybe an overhaul.

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Good input on this thread, thanks guys. Shows that the VW spirit is alive and well here on pre67vw. Its a shame that there are one or two here who seem to want to spoil it.:thumbup:

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Hi,
If you need a new 6 volt battery GSF are still doing a 10% off on-line promotion so you can get a 6v Banner battery for £79 including free shipping. You're looking for a UK404 066 6v 66Ah.
Cheers,
Andy.

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Hi, Have been looking at new batteries too so checked out GSF - you can actually get 20% off by typing batt202012
Cheers
Nathan

Jon has managed to do a battery 'drop' as posted here earlier by AW - though more by carelessness. So this advice may be very useful as the battery case is cracked at the top.:(

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I'm going to be paying I expect, so this is also welcome.

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You can get decent rubber cased 6v batteries from status, I bought one and was impressed it looks correct and fits a treat.